Addressing Women and BIPOC's Struggles in the Workplace

Tom Finn:

Welcome, welcome into the show, my friends. Today we are learning from Jimi Okubanjo. Jimi, welcome to the show. 

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Jimi Okubanjo:

Thank you for having me, glad to be here. 

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Tom Finn:

We are thrilled to have you. Let me take a moment to introduce you to this fabulous woman. Jimi is the founder of Folajimi Worldwide, but more importantly, she is the producer and the director of an incredible movie called Arise Firebird. She has a 20-year career in leadership and management consulting. She did that before the movie with great companies like McKinsey and Amazon. She worked for Royal Dutch Shell. She climbed the ladder. She's done all of those things in an organization. And that makes her a wonderful thought leader and sought-after keynote speaker, consultant. And she shares experience that she's had in corporate roles as well as filmmaking at Harvard and Association for Women in Science and the national. Retail Federation. So lots of depth of knowledge here and a wonderful background. Let's start with something really sexy. Let's go right to the movie. You had a documentary that you built and directed and produced. It's called Arise Firebird. What what is this about in terms of workplace and marginalization of women and BIPOC professionals? What what inspired you and what's the movie about? 

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Jimi Okubanjo:

So really good question. So the movie Arise Firebird tells the stories of three seasons. black and brown women working in and around the corporate hub of the UK, London, and widely considered to be one of the most liberal cities in the world. And their experience with toxic work, bullying, harassment, exclusion, succeeding, triumphing, and how that affected their mental health, their wellbeing, their confidence, their physical health, and their journey back. their journey back to abundance and wellness. Why did I do this documentary, Tom? I did it because it echoed my own experience working in the corporate world. I am definitely somebody who believed if I just throw energy, time and willpower at a problem, I can move it. I'm determined enough, I can stop oncoming traffic. And I'm like... busiest highway in the world. And doing that caused a lot of emotional damage and I didn't realize that. I really just thought I was being weak. Just shake it up, shake it off, eat a bunch of candy, chocolates down that, numb that and just keep going. But I got to a point where I had a conversation with a senior colleague and they made some very, both racist and sexist remarks. to me, they had said to me they could have hired a white man to do my doll. And you know, it led, I was, I was devastated with that. And I say this, that it was not the worst thing or the only thing that had happened to me working for that organization, or the worst thing that had happened to me by far in my career, but there was just something in that moment that I could not come back from and I couldn't understand why, and I ended up leaving. And that started me on this journey to make the film Arise Firebird because I began speaking to a lot of women, a lot of people of color about their own experiences in the workplace. And a lot of them are really bad. I mean, when it came to black women in particular, every black woman I spoke to had her own horrible experience and also knew. other women who had gone through it. Everybody, everyone who I knew that was married to a black woman, was in close fellowship or relationship with a black woman, knew that she had gone through something horrendously abusive at work. This was a massive secret. Well, that everybody knew that was going on. And so I just, and I still hear these conversations now, I hear these things and they're really quite intense. But at the same time, In the mainstream, I hear words like, don't be dramatic. We don't want to upset people. We don't want to make people angry. We want to make sure that our company isn't like that. We're not like other companies. We are the good one. We're one of the good guys. And so we don't want to talk about this because we're one of the good guys. So we can't talk about this issue, about how our women are feeling in the workplace and about how... because we are one of the good guys, so we would not allow them to have that conversation because we're so good. 

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Tom Finn:

So I want to go back before we go too far down this path. I want to pause for a second. So let's, let's give ourselves some context here. Um, what I think I heard you say is you were told that somebody could have hired a white male to do the job instead of you, which was incredibly inappropriate. Just as a starting point, I could use a whole host of other words. Um, but I'll, I'll spare the audience. That's a really impactful thing and give us some context here. So that happened in the United Kingdom during maybe what, give us a five or 10 year period of time so we can, you know, it wasn't 1962, you're far too young. In the 2020s in the UK?

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Jimi Okubanjo:

So in the 2020s or late 2010s, so it was done in one of the, I say the five largest cities in the United, in the United Kingdom. Okay. And it was done, it was by a millennial, highly educated individual, who in turn would consider themselves to be an ally. And in many ways they are an ally. But I learned that word is very complicated, the term ally. So that's the context of it. Yeah, that was super helpful. 

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Tom Finn:

Why do you think this was said to you, like why would I, I always feel like this is reserved for baby boomers, this conversation, but what I'm hearing is, no, it's not reserved for baby boomers, this was a millennial. 

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Jimi Okubanjo:

No, I've heard things from people in their early 20s. I hear some of the things from people in their teens. Exposure is exposure. You know, what you're exposed to is what you're exposed to, and one of the biggest influences I do think, so we have, our peer groups, our parents, that has a big bearing. I haven't, I can't say from my own experience, I've seen any difference in treatment based on anybody's age or educational level. I haven't, just personally speaking, I haven't seen that. But that's just a data point of one. And I say this, I say this in the sense of that, so for people who are struggling with this, because you're older, Everyone struggles, a lot of people are struggling with this. And if you're struggling, the good thing is that you are struggling with it, opposed to avoiding it, declaring victory far too early because you were born on a certain date. And somehow maybe magically the day you were born imbibes you with special magical powers that you don't have to do the work. But no, there is no such day, maybe my birthday. But there really isn't a day. that you can be born on that magically means you don't have to deal with bias, discrimination, bigotry, that we don't have to deal with that myself internally as well. Being a black woman does not magically mean I understand the issues of bisexual, transgendered individuals. And I therefore cannot say magically because I'm a black woman, I therefore am magically imbued with that knowledge. I've got to do the work, I've got to struggle with that and continue to. I think that's a really good point. You did ask why they, why somebody would do that. And the truth is, with all honesty, Tom, I have no idea.

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Tom Finn:

I wonder if it's an insecurity. I mean, we're not psychologists or psychotherapists here, but I would imagine it's a severe insecurity and trauma from something, or just being raised completely the wrong way, which also happens, bad parenting causes... you know, bad kids, which causes bad adults also. But that seems like there's probably something going on with that person that they haven't resolved at some level. 

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Jimi Okubanjo:

Maybe there's another consideration and the big one is ignorance. I think a lot of people who meanwhile just don't know, they really don't know and they don't know what they don't know. I don't think the person who said that or anything like that is a bad person. I don't, I don't think that they are, I feel like we can't always be our highest self at every moment. And if it's important for me, what I feed myself and what I consume, so when I'm under pressure, when I'm in a situation where I have to speak off the cuff, I have filled myself with so much good, with so much nourishment and nutrition and information that I... my default will be something else. But I think that I wouldn't be surprised if they were shocked at what they had said in context and couldn't believe that was why they said that. But I think the bigger thing for me, Tom, isn't so much with the work I'm doing, is not so much what that person said, but I can imagine thousands of people make comments like that. It's the impact it has on the professional who's receiving it. 

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Tom Finn:

I wanna go up just kind of one level here. So we've talked about different types of people. We've talked about sort of tolerance and respect in the workplace, workplace trauma. How do we look at this on a global scale? Is it one category of people that are being impacted? Is it multiple categories? Are we all being impacted by poor work environments? Or is it hyper, you know, are 80% of us being impacted by poor work environments? Help us understand, like, how do we... How do we look at this globally? 

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Jimi Okubanjo:

I think it's a big question. I can't speak for the whole world, but I will say that I do think people are less happy at work than ever before. I do think there's more pressure for people to be all they need to be and that's the mandate of them. With, at least in the West, higher inflation, lower wage growth that increases that pressure as well. We do see from groups of different demographics, mental health challenges, we're seeing significant sectors, especially in STEM, where they can't fill vacancies, where people are leaving and are not coming back. And where young people don't want those jobs because they've seen what it's done to their parents. So I do think we're going to be in a really interesting space where for a lot of employers, we've got to create spaces where people want to work. Especially more complicated and stressful and intense spaces where people may choose, I'll just downsize my life and have a different kind of don't. I won't put myself into that additional strain for, you know, to be a scientist or to be a engineer because it's not going to be worth it. And that question, the fundamental question about what workplaces are supposed to be, I don't really think is shifting, but everything around what it is to be a worker is. And so it's like, we don't wanna coddle anybody, but yeah, but what the increased salaries aren't increasing, we're consultating jobs, or these companies are monstrosities, or they're behemoths. Some are behemoths, some are monstrosity, but they're so large where... Yeah, 50 years ago, you knew your CEO. So if you were struggling to go and meet Bill and tell him, listen, you know, punch him in the face and walk off and feel, I don't know where you go to prison, but you know, you feel like you've done. No, I've got, okay. That was a joke. Please don't punch your boss. And I'm not, I'm not advocating punching anybody's bosses.

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Tom Finn:

Yeah, yeah.

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Jimi Okubanjo:

But what I mean is that you could-

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Tom Finn:

Jimi, public service announcement. Jimi was kidding. She doesn't want anybody to punch their boss in the face. Please don't do that. That's not a great look.

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Jimi Okubanjo:

And there were times when people could stay in a job for 10, 20, 30 years. So even if you had that security, even though things went on, been great, but all of that has changed, except for we're not really asking employers, like we need to now create spaces where people want to stay because it seems like everything else about the job has shifted. And that I think is creating a lot more tension, a lot more unhappiness, a lot more stress and strain, where I feel like a lot of companies that hold them back and saying, no, we're not here to be a place to play. We're here to get the job done. Yeah. But that, that's a principle from maybe 50, 60 years ago, when somebody could have a job for life where your company only had 200 people and they knew the MD and the CEO. 

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And so if somebody, you know, and they didn't have any women in that company either. I guess they could all go to the strip club at the end of the night and play hard. And I think we have to understand holistically how much it's changed. It's not just in the UK. I've worked in 14 countries in four different continents. And we're seeing that people's interests and demands and expectations at work are changing about coming into the workplace. We've got to think about that. We've got to think about it. very differently, I think globally. I think particularly in the West, and I say particularly in the West because that's where I am based, and most of my clients, people I work with are here. I think it's acute. It's acute, and it's gonna be, yeah, but my, but, so what can we do about it, you know? And I think a big part for me is for individuals who are going through toxic work or have gone through toxic work, one, to understand you're not alone. But I think it's also important for us to reframe and to... to re, not just reframe, because that means just kind of think about it differently, but to rethink what success in our careers actually means. And to take the depth, to take any part of that definition to success, always from what our employers are saying it is. 

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Tom Finn:

Yeah, look, I'm with you. We have to redefine what success looks like in the workplace and we have to better understand how we can rise everybody up. How a rising tide can raise all boats. That's so important because it's not about one particular group or another particular group. It's about culturally how we all come together. And I think if we start to look at the workplace as a place of, of harmonization, of course there's going to be some conflict, but it should be respectful, intellectual conflict where we're challenging ideas and we're challenging theory and we're thinking through the right ways to do things, the right ways to treat people, not that those challenges are trauma-based or anger-based or fear-based. We have to get past all of that garbage in the workplace and start to really talk to each other on a human level. And that's really the future of work in my mind is figuring out how all of us with different backgrounds and cultures and parents and languages and skin colors and all the things that we think about in terms of demographics come together to work together. 

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Jimi Okubanjo:

You know it's interesting you use the word challenge. And that's something I picked up in my career. Like I took a challenge, you know, I'm up for a challenge. I want to challenge you on this. And I, having left and started running my own project, I don't use that word because it's in some ways challenge like meritocracy is, it's quite loaded. And in some ways we can, I just need, you know, it's normalizing what actually really is a not a nice, your challenges are not nice experiences. And this notion where like debating that there has to be some sort of conflict, not conflict. I'm going to use violence for good ideas to come out and it has to be, you know, it's going to be I win, you lose space. Again, it's out, I feel it's outdated. Can you, can we find, is there a way for me to get my view across without stamping on your feelings? or without accepting I'm going to stamp on your feelings. And it may be, it requires some growth on your end as well, Tom. But as a leadership team, are we saying, how do we have a healthy team where we can be vulnerable about it? 

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So when someone is quote-unquote, challenging, we can say, you don't have to be nasty about it. Yeah, I'm just gonna ask the right question. No, you could ask that with respect. You could ask that with compassion. You could rethink first about how you say it. So you can bring the question out or maybe do your own research. I know how to ask me that question, which makes you think I'm questioning your question, my work. But so well, that's what we do. But we know that often, I think, the easiest thing in the world to make someone feel like an idiot. the easiest thing in the world to argue. It's called the backfire effect. You can argue, you can win an argument. And then where are we? And I think looking at the West with hyper-politicization and polarization, I think it's a really good case study where debating, arguing, challenging, being right, you know, let's just have a conversation and let's just, you know. defend your position hasn't actually led to unity, but actually has led to moral divisiveness, versus how do we change the way we engage and we talk with each other so that we can be more respectful and we can be softer. It's like, well, Jimi, just like, no, I don't wanna work with a bunch of snowflakes. Yeah, but the truth is then guess what? Go run your factory by yourself. You know, because first of all, the fact that you didn't think someone's a snowflake because they don't wanna be treated with disrespect. It takes a lot of courage to say, you're disrespecting me in the workplace. It is, it takes a lot of courage to tell your boss, I don't like the way you spoke to me. It takes more courage, I think, for a man to cry at work about the way he's being treated. That in this day and age is the real like. I can't believe we have that kind of courage to do that, to show, but we misplace that for people who are just gonna be, who are gonna suppress how they feel and then pass on that pain and abuse to someone who's subordinate to that. 

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So my hope with what we're doing, the Arise Firebird, is for those who are on the receiving end and even those on the giving end of that. Because one can be a victim and as well as a victimizer. So hopefully stop that pattern and to realize that actually if I know I have inherit worth, I know that my happiness, my worth, my dignity isn't contingent upon getting promoted, isn't contingent upon the CEO inviting me to his house to play. Croquet or whatever CEO is playing their houses. I'm thinking badminton. That even if I don't get a great appraisal or I don't get the appraisal I want or the assignment I want, that doesn't make me inherently, that doesn't make me a bad person or that doesn't even make me incompetent. And making mistakes and messing up at work does not make me a failure or make me a bad person. And I don't need my boss to validate me to feel that I am somebody who is contributing to my company and contributing to my team. Because having leaders like that means they can make decisions that are not about trying to get to that next level. 

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We have leaders who can be present in my job right now. I'm the marketing manager. I'm the marketing executive and I have peace and joy and fulfillment in this role. And I'm gonna be a very productive and effective. marketing executive and not being tapped for chief marketing officer does not mean anything about who I am. And what people want to say in remarks, people want to say, you know, I can say with all due respect about me getting passed over, I don't think it's okay to gossip. And I think maybe we should have a discussion about your need to gossip with me about that. But versus, and then, and being able to process when people try to make one feel bad.

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When one does feel ashamed or embarrassed about that, to be able to have a safe space, to talk about it, unpack it, it's not gonna be with your colleagues. It's not gonna be with your boss. It's not gonna be with HR, not because they're bad people, but that's really not HR's job to help you feel good about the fact that they didn't support you and what they will say, and that is all the reasons why you should not have been promoted, which for a lot of people makes them feel... damages confidence, especially if objectively, in quotes, you've hit all those markers. And you then get this feedback because they've got to give you that feedback to justify that non-promotion, the lack of bonus. It can really make somebody really feel that they might be something wrong with how they see the world fundamentally. And that can erode confidence. 

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So it's important to have spaces to process this in the context of they were only gonna promote one person and it just was not you. It has nothing to do with your performance. It has nothing to do, you delivered and you over-delivered, but they were only gonna pick one person. And, you know, statistically, they don't pick people who look like you. So what are your options? And the thing is from that space of expansiveness where you look, I have all this to offer, what are your options? And then maybe I'm happy to stay here and I like the work I'm doing. No, I can live with being passed over because I get so much more out of this world. And I'm happy for it to give another two years and just Keep on with it. It may be, you know what? In my company, there are 5,000 people, there are other opportunities in the organization. I will look for something else and give myself six months or two years, again, two years or whatever. And some, it may be, you know what? I'm gonna take a six-month sabbatical, I'm gonna travel around, see more of the world and come back and then decide when I'm ready. And that's all valid. And some, I'm gonna sit down with the CEO, go to, you know, and... you know, and have a conversation with them about this issue. And it may take you 18 months to get that CEO meeting, but chance that you might just get it. If you know, you're persisting, like I am an employee, you know, eight, nine, six in our employee handbook. I'm in charge of one CEO meeting every seven years. So I'm going to try and have that meeting and not to be a pain in anything, but so I feel like that's the space where I feel there's more hope. there's more, there's more energy for people to be able to not really get caught up in what they can't change, which is the 5000 people who work in that company or the, or the promotion that happened two years ago, it didn't happen. But what they can change, they can influence, and what they can get meaning around that profession and their professional work. 

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Tom Finn:

I love the way you put all that. That’s a lot to unpack and a lot of great little nuggets in there for people to really think about. 

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If you could take your magic wand- we give you a magic wand and you get to wave it and you get to give three core characteristics to every CEO, which ultimately should trickle down into great cultures. Three characteristics, you can pick them, every CEO has got to have them and if they don't have them, they're out, if they do have them, they're in. What would the three characteristics be that you would want for every CEO to have so that... We really avoid these toxic cultures and we have a much better, more harmonized place to go to work. 

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Jimi Okubanjo:

So I'm thinking as a shareholder because I'm thinking I get dividends or I'm an investor in this company and I'm a long-term investor in the companies I invest in. So what would I want from my CEO? I'd want him to ensure, I'd want him to make sure I've got, you know, I have my retirement income is going to be around 40, you know, I'm going to live to 200, like 150 years from now. You know, I'm not in 50, so like 190 years from now because I'm only 10 years old. So So what would I want a CEO to do to make sure that happens? So I want a CEO who can play the long game, who understands that. And so one way is that it's the staff, a lot of STEM technical fields are struggling with staffing and retaining staff. And they're not gonna be able to restrain to really fix that in the short term without dealing with these cultural issues. So I do need a CEO who's got a plan to ensure that in 10 years, they're still highly profitable and they have resolved or they're resolving the staffing shortage in a sustainable long-term way. So one, that's what I want them to be able to do. 

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Tom Finn:

Okay, that's one. So number one is: long-term view, revenue, bottom line, core competency of a healthy long-term company. That's one. 

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Jimi Okubanjo:

No, no, so what I mean slightly different is like the long-term view, but specifically around the staffing shortage. They need to have a staffing strategy. to counter the shortage and the projected skill shortages we're seeing. And that requires them having a long-term view. And this links back to making a healthier workplace. Because if people keep still quitting and some industries, they're aging out, in 10 years, they're not gonna be as productive. And financially, that's gonna affect the company's returns in X number of years. It's something they can skirt around now, but in 10, 20 years, we're gonna have significant, we could be having significant gaps, which will affect the profitability. So that's for me, speaks to our cultural work is really important. So I'm the CEO who understands that cultural transformations, they've got to stick with them and have a long-term view to make sure they can attract and retain enough of the right kinds of people. So you've got to have a healthy culture for that. I think the second, characteristic I'd want to see you to have is… I'm going to say humility, real humility to understand where they actually are in terms of performance. Um, and it'd be great to be kind of done with the bravado. To be clear what they don't understand, what they don't get, even within their organizations, what their limits are within the organization. And to have a courage, and not look like a handyman for all of that. I think the final thing I would say for a CEO is the senior who really actively invests in their mental health and mental wellbeing. So getting therapy, like a therapy, antidepressant medication, whatever medication they need to be on, they need to invest in something that I think makes them more resilient to be able to do that and to have a long-term view to invest in their psychological or psychiatric software. I would be very suspect of a CEO this day and age who is not getting that kind of thing. That means, what is he doing? It has to come out somewhere. The check must be paid. 

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Tom Finn:

Yep. 

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Jimi Okubanjo:

The check must be paid. So, you know, I, you know, what's it going to be? I don't know. You know, I think for a lot of execs, execs now that won't, the check, we'll find out later what exactly, how that check was paid, but I also feel it just in terms of it makes a healthier person means that they will, they will want around them healthier people. I just, and I do not believe this is about sacrificing profitability for, I believe, I believe that inextricably linked, it's maybe it's maybe sacrificing short-term cash-grabbing, but for long-term wealth creation and long-term strategic positioning. I think that that's what I believe. 

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Tom Finn:

Well, I agree with you on all of those points. I think that there's, there's something to be said for. uh, undertaking a long-term view, understanding the workforce and the needs of, of additional roles in the workforce, then having some humility along the way to really, um, make sure that you connect with everybody. And then the last one I think may come as a surprise to people, um, that you really want a CEO to take care of their mental health and not enough people talk about CEO mental health and Jimi, what you're saying is I don't want somebody in that chair. that isn't getting supported because it's and what she meant by that check's going to get paid. That rent is due. What she's saying is, excuse me, folks, if your CEO is stressed out, it's going to come out negatively. And if they don't know how to deal with it, it's coming out on the people that report to them. And we don't want that in the workplace. So therapy, whatever clinical solution, whether it's a physical solution like yoga or exercise or any other solution that maybe supports the mental health of the CEO. I love that because it just makes all the sense in the world that you've got to have somebody who's got their head screwed on straight to lead an organization. Beautifully said.

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Jimi Okubanjo:

And understand, here's the thing about being a senior executive from there. I mean, I would love any CEO who's working with over 500 people, you know, you're probably being pulled in, you know, 70, 80 different directions every day. You can't make everybody happy. You're upsetting somebody constantly. And where do you go with that? Because you know, what I've heard, what I've learned is at least 98% of CEOs are human beings. Um, and so I'm not, I haven't, I don't have anything empirical, but I know at least 98%. And human beings, you know, there's only so much they can take without And other ways the checks can be due is we have all kinds of funky behavior from the most downright criminal to at least unethical to just odd. We have CEOs who, again, poor health, they impact on their families and what they role model. If you're role modeling ill health as health, people are going to follow what you do. I... promise any CEO, I'd love this if you would do this for a week, wear a yellow suit to work for a month and say nothing about it and just see how many people in your company start wearing yellow suits to work.

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Tom Finn:

Yeah, yeah, for sure. It would happen. It would absolutely happen. Or they'd wear yellow, they'd take a piece of it. I'm going to wear yellow slacks. I'm going to wear a yellow blouse. I'm going to have a new yellow jacket, a blazer. you know, a coat. Yep, I'm gonna wear some yellow jewelry, you know, put some yellow earrings in. I'm gonna put a yellow pocket square in my in my Navy jacket instead of my Navy pocket square or my white pocket square. No, I'm with you. I think that leadership shadow that CEOs cast is real. And leading with integrity and humility and understanding that what you do makes an impact on others is super important. So I'm with you 100%. 

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So Jimi, if people want to get together with you, they want to track you down, they want to watch the fabulous documentary, Arise Firebird, how can they track you down, find you and get to know you a little bit better? 

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Jimi Okubanjo:

If they go to our website, arisefirebird.com or you email us at info at arisefirebird.com, then yeah, we will get in touch. Remember, my team will get in touch. about bringing the film to your organization, or for those who wanna work with me personally in terms of how they can fall back in love with Mondays, away from dreading work to actually finding that, you know what, every day kinda feels like a Friday. I'd also be, we're looking to work with professionals as well in terms of helping them kind of re-strategize their career trajectory. 

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Tom Finn:

Beautiful, I love it. Well, we'll leave it there, Jimi. Thank you for the great work that you're doing. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and your challenges. weight, not challenges. We gotta take that word out. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and your love for other people and all of the great work that you're doing to support talent and empower others around the world. We appreciate you very much. 

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Jimi Okubanjo:

Thank you.